Having read Dan's life a bit, he would call himself a Lutheran in Doctrine and a Pentecostal in Practice. I'm just exactly that.
The idea that I must somehow become a Member with all the "Rights and Privileges" is hard for me to stomach. Who gives that right and privilege? I have been member of a Church in the past. If it was essential to my ministry I would be again. I have always been clear on that.
Via Steve Scott of From the Pew, I got this fine link today that is written by an ex Catholic regarding the banality of trying to create "Church Members". If a person affiliates with a church he or she is a member. Barna says that in today's Christian world n the USA most Christians have at least 3 and up to 7 different affiliation's they maintain. I know I'm over 3. This doesn't divide. This embraces and builds. Only if you are trying to build an empire will you as a pastor worry much about membership.
OH, I want members who are committed and who have the best interest of the Body at Heart. They should be voting members. That makes sense. I just with it had more to do with faithfulness, giving and ministry involvement than some silly little man made program that makes a member of an uncommitted lukewarm once a month Christan and holds at arms length the man or woman who Loves Jesus but who is unwilling to be rubber stamped with a label. I am a "Member" by participation in at least 3 fellowships on a regular basis and 3 other occasional fellowships. I do NOT agree with everything every one of those fellowships would teach or practice. But, I agree with most of them in each of them or I wouldn't maintain the relationship.
From this Pastor's Writing on Membership:
A great deal of the tomfoolery concerning division in churches could be done away with if we took the time to base membership in the local church off of identity–who a person is in Christ–instead of thinking that membership is a matter of joining up with a particular community or expressing a commitment to a certain local church. At our church, if you attend at least once a year and in so doing worship with us, take communion, and give financially we consider you a member–because these are things normal Christians do and we are always ready to recognize that reality in people. We don’t have membership vows and we don’t have any sort of commitment pledge card for you to sign. We don’t ask for you to commit to things you’re not ready to commit to or require you to be someone other than who you are.We must come to realize that denominations as they exist today are a mirage. They really have no bearing on the state of one’s soul. They play no essential role in the existence and spread of the church. For eighteen hundred years prior to their existence, the church was able to do all that she needed to do quite without them and they only arose in a particularly unique and heretofore unseen historical context.
Likewise, churches that pretend that membership vows are necessary to embark upon good church discipline and commitment in their churches also hit well wide of the mark. What commitment isn’t implicitly or explicitly made in Baptism that is reflected in these church vows that are made when a new family joins these churches? Why is an additional post-sacramental vow necessary to reaffirm what has already been promised in converting to Christ?
Put simply, if you are a Christian you are already a member of the Body of Christ. If you come and participate with us in worship, we recognize you for who you are. If you come more than once, we treat you like the family you are. Doing more than that by adding additional guidelines and commitments that you’ve already made long ago amounts to legalism and shouldn’t be a part of our churches.These ideas about Christian identity are radical (though, truth be told, they really do have ancient and biblical precedent) and have consequences all the way up and down the line.
He also has something to say about Ordination. I agree with him. We in our denomination RE-Ordain people. WHAT? Credentials are Credentials. I know some Dr's of Divinity I would NEVER let in my Pulpit because they are loons. (SPONG!) I know some humble good men of God who are local licenced pastors who any Church would be thrilled to have as a leader. How did it all get so stupid anyway?
These ideas about Christian identity are radical (though, truth be told, they really do have ancient and biblical precedent) and have consequences all the way up and down the line.
It means, for example, that ordination by one ecclesial body ought to be respected by others and things like “regularization of orders” or “re-ordination” ought to be condemned. What?!? It’s only your particular fellowship or denomination that’s rightly ordaining ministers? Please. Let us abandon this sort of denominational thinking in favor of being in line with the actual truth of the matter.
AMEN MY BROTHER! I'm proud to be a member with you in the only church body that matters. THE CHURCH.
13 comments:
Thanks for the kudos...but, just a small point here, I'm not an ex-Catholic and never have been Roman Catholic. Theologically speaking, I would consider myself Reformed. Actually, this is the website of my church:
http://www.trinityphoenix.com
Great site!
>>>Kevin D. Johnson
What's that saying "I'd never be a part of something that would have me as a member" or was that a club? Church-club-its all the same thing right?
think of it as a mailing list - they need a membership list to know who to hit up for cash - whose are you one and who do you give to and are they the same?
"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves” (Hebrews 13:17)
Rule is a dangerous thing when you add control and personal agenda. If
all three are not bathed in 'Truth and Light', walk away. Seek another rule. God will ultimately be the judge. You never have to submit to something you know in your heart (Jesus lives there), is wrong!
Leaders, you will be more accountable than others. Walk and Care for all people in God's love.
no wonder i dont go to church.
i thought you guys said the bible was the only authority? im sure jim jones' church wish thye'd listened to someone else
freaky
You 'do not go to church' by your choice.
Take accountability for your choices and do not place the blame on others. It is man /woman's sins that cause the problems, not God's church. God's Word is where we can grow in learning how to change that. It is not God that causes the problems. He has all the answers, if we only listen and try to change and grow. The Holy Bible
is the answer.
"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves” (Hebrews 13:17)
If you knew me well, I am in absolute submission to the leader of the House. I will not nor will I ever violate his or her authority.
I have even asked the leader of the house I work in right now, "IF you really really need me to be a member I can and will". It violates my principles but If it were that important I would do it to remain in proper submission.
Before however I took that step I would expect to have a heart to heart practical discussion with him or her.
So, yes I will OBEY. But I will be heard as well.
I don't see ANY scriptural basis for "Membership" rituals. In fact it could be said that the OPPOSITE is true.
I think the brother (Pastor) that wrote this fine piece I tagged onto is right on the money. I wish folks would hear him out.
Oh, Obedience and Membership are unrelated. Show me where there is any basis in Scripture for them being intertwined and I'll listen.
Otherwise it's just tradition, trying to keep the rats in the barn.
Gene,
Mark Mersch here...as a born again believer, in the sense of John 3:3 I have started reading your blog. It is great and I find it interesting. I actually attend an large SBC church in Omaha. I certianly do not agree with everything they do and I have gone to the plate to 'discuss' my Biblical position many times...usually without success I might add. But, I believe that we are commanded in scriptures to 'not forsake assembling together'. (Hebrews 10:23-25) Now, whether this actually pertains to the church or not is up for debate, however I believe Christ structured the church in Acts and 1 Timothy. If it was not His intention for us to meet together I do not believe he would have spoke these words. I would be interested in your thoughts on this.
Great blog...gets me thinking!
Mark
Question? If you are in a church or a job somewhere out in the world and the leader(s) lie to his or her people putting everyone
in danger or causing the possibility of losing business, job, the church or even your very soul, would you:
Still follow them ?
Try to help achieve positive change ?
leave if you found there was nothing more you could do?
WWJD
I would never drink a Jim Jones cocktail. Common sense and choice have to apply sometime, do they not?
Right on ANON.
This is absolutely the case. If there is nothing more that you can do and the door is closed, walk out.
To stay and die, Spiritually or Koolaid is stupid.
Thanks for your insight.
Gene
Thank you for clearing that up for me.
I agree Anon...however, the responsibility falls on our shoulders to study what is being taught to us to verify that it follows God's word.... 2 Timothy 3:16 and not be blindly lead to the slaughter..so to speak
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