Peter Huber identifies the insanity that Ecological Earth Worship gets you....
Shoveling wind and sun is much, much harder. Windmills are now 50-story skyscrapers. Yet one windmill generates a piddling 2 to 3 megawatts. A jumbo jet needs 100 megawatts to get off the ground; Google is building 100-megawatt server farms. Meeting New York City’s total energy demand would require 13,000 of those skyscrapers spinning at top speed, which would require scattering about 50,000 of them across the state, to make sure that you always hit enough windy spots. To answer the howls of green protest that inevitably greet realistic engineering estimates like these, note that real-world systems must be able to meet peak, not average, demand; that reserve margins are essential; and that converting electric power into liquid or gaseous fuels to power the existing transportation and heating systems would entail substantial losses. What was Mayor Bloomberg thinking when he suggested that he might just tuck windmills into Manhattan? Such thoughts betray a deep ignorance about how difficult it is to get a lot of energy out of sources as thin and dilute as wind and sun.
It’s often suggested that technology improvements and mass production will sharply lower the cost of wind and solar. But engineers have pursued these technologies for decades, and while costs of some components have fallen, there is no serious prospect of costs plummeting and performance soaring as they have in our laptops and cell phones. When you replace conventional with renewable energy, everything gets bigger, not smaller—and bigger costs more, not less. Even if solar cells themselves were free, solar power would remain very expensive because of the huge structures and support systems required to extract large amounts of electricity from a source so weak that it takes hours to deliver a tan.
This is why the (few) greens ready to accept engineering and economic reality have suddenly emerged as avid proponents of nuclear power. In the aftermath of the Three Mile Island accident—which didn’t harm anyone, and wouldn’t even have damaged the reactor core if the operators had simply kept their hands off the switches and let the automatic safety systems do their job—ostensibly green antinuclear activists unwittingly boosted U.S. coal consumption by about 400 million tons per year. The United States would be in compliance with the Kyoto Protocol today if we could simply undo their handiwork and conjure back into existence the nuclear plants that were in the pipeline in nuclear power’s heyday. Nuclear power is fantastically compact, and—as America’s nuclear navy, several commercial U.S. operators, France, Japan, and a handful of other countries have convincingly established—it’s both safe and cheap wherever engineers are allowed to get on with it.
Here's the real question. What if the whole idea of global warming caused by CO2 emissions is just fantasy? It is. There is no global warming. The earth cycles, but you didn't cause it and you can't stop it. So, stopping commerce by capping trade and carbon credits is a simpleton's fairy tale.
There, I have done my part to try to bring just a little sanity to the insanity that terrifies little children of a hell on earth from Global Warming. Isn't that a sad pitiful commentary on what this evil religion has descended to??
9 comments:
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah - - - do you ever hve anything new or ACCURATE to say? your use of the term megawatt reveals you lack of understanding of what kind of unit of measture it is. and since you have that wrong, and since you cannot compare one burst of get-off-the-ground with ongoing power use and since you lie about how big a reactor is, failing to include the buidlings and the grounds and the immense vast cooling ponds and the long term waste generated, your whole thesis is shot to hell. sorry. you have addded nothing new to the discussion today. 'dare to read it' - you bore me with nonsense like this. who is your secret source, some physicist who is and expert on nutrionos but don;t know squat on climate? oh, yeah, the THRONE - most of us use that word only to talk about the toilet - flush yours, gene, it's giving you old stuff back - or did you mean the voices in your head as your mystical secret source that is 'feeding you this'? feeding you quite a line.
Gene, I'll try to be less angry than the previous person's response. I am very curious what the real carbon impact wind power has. I don't subscribe to the carbon impact theories in regards to climate change, but let's use carbon impact as a basis of comparison. Consider the amount of steel in these towers that has to be smelted using "dirty" coal. Coke(Coal) + Limestone + Iron Ore + Oxygen = Steel (give or take). Consider the carbon emissions needed to aquire these components. Consider the vast array of electrical wire needed to wire the wind farm. If its copper, it is likely smelted in a foriegn country with a pollution belching dirty smelter that poisons people. If it is aluminum, much much energy is consumed to reduce the natural material into aluminum. A massive concrete foundation is required to support these towers. Much concrete is used which requires a large amount of fossil fuel consumption to create the cement in a kiln. Much reinforcing steel is embedded in the concrete which cannot be seen by the casual observer let alone the emotionally enraged so-called "environmentalists". Again, fossil fuels are required to produce rebar (Coke/Limestone/Iron Ore/Oxygen). A vast array of service technicians are scurrying around in fossil fuel burning vehicles to service the wind generators. In the end, what have we gained? It seems the only thing sustainable in the wind energy industry is our use of fossil fuels used to create and support the wind industry. Oh, and one thing more. Where are all the Environmental Impact Statements required for these things? They are notorious for bird killing. A coal-burning plant has to go through a plethora of EIS's. Why not wind as well? Fair is fair.
If they were notorious for bird killing, the Audobon Society would not endorse them. One more baseless myth. And all that investment of stucture has to happen no matter what kind of energy is produced so it is moot. Or do you think there is no concrete in a dam? No metal or concrete or wiring in a nuclear plant? There is no more in wind generation than any other, so that point is . . . pointless. Nice try tho.
You lengthy listing of the materials needed to make wind mills and transmission lines is quite silly. All forms of energy generation require similar upfront investments. Obviously. Wind is no more costly up front than any other. It is in fact less so because it does not require big buildings to house the generators. Nuclear power plants are huge and have huge cooliing ponds and plumbing to run the cooling aparatus. Hydroelectric damns require MASSIVE amounts of metal reinforcing and concrete. Look at those silly ethanol plants dotting the Dakotas. Huge, lots of metal, concrete, plastic. Asphalt lots to hold the grain piles and bins. The upfront investment of material is irrelevant because it is common to all forms of energy generation.
What matters is the cost of what goes in. Nuclear and coal and gas require costly fuel. Solar and wind are made of FREE input. Nuclear and goal and gas plants require significant staff. Solar and wind require relatively little. You comparisons are not equally grounded and therefor unfair. As for the bird kill you think is a given, it is not. The National Audubon Society endorses wiind energy. Try to keep current on the issues and don't waste time spouting stuff like that that is debunked all over the internet. Read about it a little, from BOTH sides, from science not just conservtive propoganda.
Better angry than stupid.
"Wind is no more costly up front than any other. It is in fact less so because it does not require big buildings to house the generators." goprairie can have his "environmentally friendly" wind towers which produce a whopping 2 MW and are skinned with 1-1/2" thick steel. I'll elect to keep my 1500 MW coal plant skinned with 20 ga. metal sheeting. Big, light, efficient buildings or relatively small, heavy, inefficient towers? I choose light and efficient. The principle of economies of scale is lost on the emotional.
right. the walls is all there is at a coal plant. what about the mines? what about the hauling of the coal? try to find a serious cradle-to-grave analysis before you make simplistic statements about the amount of steel inthe walls and call that a complete comparison.
Cradle to grave analysis? I don't need to go there with coal. The wind industry is the one making the claims of being environmentally friendly and green, when in reality, they are not. I have a challenge. In regards to economical electrical production, remove all taxes from wind and coal, remove all regulation from wind and coal, remove all subsidies from wind and coal. Let's see then which industry will thrive. The wind industry is currently being propped up. Their economics are artificial.
you don't think coal is being subsidised? what a foolish idea. dare to look it up on the internet.
and you are right, you don't need to do a more careful assessment of the true costs and benfits of any energy source from beginning to end, including the cost of inputs to it during its lifetime. you can continue to try to make these arguments based on partial information like comparing the skin of a wind tower pole to that of a wall of a coal building. what do you think goes into the overs that burn the coal, for example, if we were to continue to play your game. but you do not have to work from complete facts at all. you will fail to win arguments, as you did here. you will retain an opinion fed to you by your side, whose agenda you are unaware of, so that you will be a tool for them. so go ahead, don't look up any of it or make any attempt to read to try to form a true complete picture. cling to your luddite ways. why don't you go toss some plastic litter onto the roadside today too? you don't have to pay attention to any of that anti-litter stuff the liberals got into law either.
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