Wednesday, September 09, 2009

I need me a real Bible Scholar to Explain this to me:

I have never fought in any of the Bible translation wars. I have many. Use several. Use online Bibles and find them good.

Seldom do I hit something that makes me go HMMMMM.

This did. In the KJV there appears to be a pretty good exemplar for the doctrine of the trinity. Good, solid. 1 John 5:5-8

1 John 5:5-8 (King James Version)

5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Then there is the NLT and the NIV. They seem to leave out all that Father Son and Holy Ghost Trinitarian Talk. They explain it away of course, but it makes me go HMMMM.

1 John 5:5-8 (New International Version)

5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8thea]">[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
Footnotes:

1. 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)


1 John 5:5-8 (New Living Translation)

5 And who can win this battle against the world? Only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

6 And Jesus Christ was revealed as God’s Son by his baptism in water and by shedding his blood on the crossa]">[a]—not by water only, but by water and blood. And the Spirit, who is truth, confirms it with his testimony. 7 So we have these three witnessesb]">[b]—8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and all three agree.
Footnotes:

1. 1 John 5:6 Greek This is he who came by water and blood.
2. 1 John 5:7 A few very late manuscripts add in heaven—the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And we have three witnesses on earth.

And then you have a word for word from the original manuscripts. Why are the Father Son and Holy Ghost Trinity passages left out?

1 John 5:5-8 (Young's Literal Translation)

5who is he who is overcoming the world, if not he who is believing that Jesus is the Son of God?

6This one is he who did come through water and blood -- Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth,

7because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;

8and three are who are testifying in the earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.
So, who is right I wonder and why is this disparate? Anyone? HMMM

4 comments:

Alan Knox said...

Gene,

The problem is that the Greek manuscript evidence for those verses is minimal. The words are only found in 8 late manuscripts, and its only found in the margins of 4 of those manuscripts.

Erasmus did not include the phrase in the first two editions of his Greek New Testament, but he added it into the third because of criticism from the church.

So, the question may not be why some English translation remove 1 John 5:7, but the question may be why some English translations ADD 1 John 5:7.

-Alan

Anonymous said...

Yes,I agree with Alan in his comments. There are some people who somehow believe that the KJV is a translation that is so divine that it is heresy to use any other. There is much evidence outside of that KJV 1 Jo. 5:7 translation for the doctrine of the Trinity.
1 Jo. 5:7 is not the only place in the Western Text that has been questioned by New Testament Greek scholars who are evangelical . . .. . . .H.

Dr. Barry L. Kolb said...

I was going to respond...but who am I to argue with Alan or Harry?

Gene said...

Thanks men. I'm no scholar, I just sometimes hit something that makes me wonder. This did.